Overweening Generalist

Monday, July 7, 2014

Reading David Foster Wallace and Tom Robbins Concurrently: Utter Incommensurability For Me

As a temporary detour from one of my reading projects - the entire Tom Robbins oeuvre, chronologically - I went back and re-read a bunch of sections from David Foster Wallace's works, because  I'd recently had a conversation about DFW's suicide in 2008, and it occurred to me that Tom Robbins - as "passe" as some readers feel his work now ( I certainly do not feel he's passe), "knew" something about life that DFW didn't.

                                                 David Foster Wallace

But this may be too facile: my diagnosis, after reading a couple of books of interviews with DFW and a terrific piece by Maria Bustillos, is that DFW may have been doomed from childhood: too much genius, too much self-consciousness and depression. In the last year of his life he tried to get off Nardil, which he'd been on since a suicide attempt, around 20 years before. Nothing else worked, he spiraled down, even with the resumption of Nardil and 12 rounds of electroconvulsive "therapy," and hung himself in Claremont, California, September 12, 2008.

In one interview he said he did LSD and "a fair amount of psilocybin in college," and smoked pot from age 15 or 16 until he got out of grad school. Why did he stop smoking pot? "I just, it wasn't shutting the system down anymore. It was just making the system, it was just making the system more unpleasant to be part of. My own system." (See Although Of Course You End Up Becoming Yourself, pp.137-139.) Wallace also had had a major alcohol problem, but "I was a sort of joyless drinker..." (op.cit, 142, and italics in original)

I cannot relate to the idea of smoking pot or drinking as a way to "shut down" my "system." I am nothing if not a joyful drinker. DFW is such a compelling figure to me that I will always know that there are people far smarter than me who are nonetheless haunted, and nothing from Big Pharma will allow them to feel unalloyed joy in simple things.

One of the many things I grapple with when I think of DFW is this feeling of the insistent, constantly surging intelligence coupled with what seems to me a horrifying level of self-doubt. I heartily refrain from armchair dipshit psychoanalysis here; in other words: I won't speculate further on the deepest levels of the source of DFW's misery.

Both DFW and Tom Robbins will be found in fat books that talk about "postmodern" American writers. Both used surrealist elements in their prose to engage their readers. Robbins was born 30 years before DFW, and perhaps many of you know about DFW's "puritan" backlash regarding Irony in our culture. (The seminal statement is probably his essay on TV, "E Unibus Plurum," collected in A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again.) Although I don't see TR as an ironically-minded writer, I do see him as a psychedelic writer. DFW too, oddly, for reasons touched on above.

DFW thought irony had become toxic to our culture, but while it had been an effective mode of rhetoric for authors from the 1960s in their attacks on post-WW2 assumptions about social relations, class, conformity, and "reality," by the early 1990s it was so pervasive that it was like the old fish-don't-know-they're-in-water thing: the educated young were so ironic and hip and miserable they couldn't even see that in their constant resorting to irony, they were crying out, in effect, "I'm trapped! Help me out! This is miserable!" (5 Second clip from The Simpsons for the win!)

I consider both DFW and Tom Robbins (TR) as novelists of ideas. TR imagined a character who was so well-defined as a mouthpiece for radical environmentalism and the dangers of rampant technology that the FBI questioned him in the Unabomber case before the G-Men caught up to Ted. DFW dreamed up a character that ran an academy for tennis-playing excellence, and he was a fascist. The character jumped off the page and ran around my house, in one ear, out the other.

TR put in with unalloyed Tibetan-tinged "crazy wisdom" long ago, even before he met Joseph Campbell and toured Mexico and Central America and later even more far-flung regions of the globe. He still celebrates July 26, 1963 - the day he first did LSD - as the most important day of his life, so much so that it actuated him to quit his job by "calling in well" and saying he was staying home, and that prior to that day he had been ill.

I am holding back on willy-nilly speculations about naivete, "belief" and especially, the albatross of Ego...

I'm not sure if DFW ever got out of the country, much less his own head. And yet: he seemed to believe some of his characters had come alive and spoken to him. I believe he had tremendous capacity for empathy. Certainly DFW's forays into psychedelics did not bring about any sort of psychic "breakthrough" that they had for TR, whose overall prose style seems to represent a form of mimesis of the mind on psychedelics.

While a recurring line in TR, "The world situation was dire, as usual" doesn't indicate a non-engagement with world politics, TR still seems one of the foremost exponents of change-yourself-first in order to change the world. I see his novels as literary LSD. The difficulty, the incommensurability of this is: I see DFW's novels (and much of his non-fiction) as psychedelic too. This may have to do with the sheer burst of information-per-page encountered in DFW, and let us recall Aldous Huxley's image of "normal consciousness" as a firehose with a crink in it, so water only comes out in dribs and drabs, while on psychedelics, the crink is undone and the brain is flooded by the hose, gushing full-on, overwhelming, consciousness-expanding.

Meanwhile, DFW thought something like Freud's Pleasure Principle was a threat to Unistat minds. TV and other media and "low art" were so effective and polished and easy - giving us a constant stream of comfortable, predictable shows that didn't challenge us but still felt really good that we've become divorced from "reality" and are setting ourselves up for fascism. He was saying this in the early 1990s. In the mid 1990s he predicted ever-better viewing situations, ever-better shows - by then he'd said the commercials were better than the shows, as far as sophistication of knowing the viewers' desires - and he predicted something like Netflix. In his magnum opus, Infinite Jest, there's a film that's so entertaining - called "Infinite Jest" - that people literally cannot stop watching it, and they become comatose, and figuratively lobotomized. And Quebecois terrorists want the film to use as a terror device, but I digress...

DFW could be hilarious. TR makes me laugh out loud, too. Their innate temperaments, or dispositions, or the happy and sad exigencies of their lives larded on top of those predispositions...makes me feel the personalities of the two seem quite far apart. I find I love both men's writing, and have an idealized picture of how each guy "really is" (or was) and that I like both personalities quite a lot. I don't expect to get to know TR, who is 82 this year; I never knew DFW. I know I cannot read DFW without knowing he was always in pain, and that he killed himself at age 46. Suicide haunts the background of every reading of DFW for me. This just makes me sad.

I may be pissing some DFW fans off here, but I assert that, while he considered himself a sort of avant-garde fiction writer (who wished to redeem avant-garde too-cool-fer-skool exercises with a sort of earnest and non-ironic spiritus) first, and a writer of non-fiction pieces second, he was a better non-fiction writer. And his fiction is marvelous. NB: while he was in grad school he was smoking pot, watching tons of TV, and doing psychedelics, all the while producing his first novel, The Broom of the System, and a Philosophy thesis that had to do with Wittgensteinian ideas titled "Richard Taylor's Fatalism and the Semantics of Physical Modality." What a freaky, wonderful, genius (MacArthur "Genius" Award 1997)! What a loss!

TR thought a good TV show would be "Queer Eye For the Fungi":

DFW thought the logical endpoint of our involvement with "reality" TV shows would be something called "Celebrity Autopsy," where we watch a coroner eviscerate an actual celebrity who died, while above his/her friends and family talk about the kind of person the celebrity really was.

I end this ramble - and let's face it: it's one - with a restatement: the goofy-wise joy behind TR is infectious and makes me love life. And academia pretends he's not serious. DFW did...all that (I did not mention he wrote a math book on Cantor's transfinite sets, which led to Godel...) In premature death, young academia acted like their own Kurt Cobain figure died, and maybe that's an apt analogy. But I do think the overall worldview and tone and sentences and ideas of TR deserve more nuanced reading in this, our year of the NSA 2014CE. But they won't. And so: why? Perhaps the serious Mind of our Academy considers a brilliant, "absurdly educated" (DFW's phrase) as one of their own; TR's offerings of ways Out still just seem silly, outre, irresponsible?

It could be that something in TR's overall project may be something like the "redemption" that DFW was looking for, for us. Or not. Or...sorta? (Maybe?)

Incommensurability. I'm not sure if DFW and TR would've liked each other. I like to daydream that they would hit it off.


Anonymous said...

I've heard of Robbins but Wallace
is a new one for me. I did note
that the guy who did the intro to
his math book wrote the cyberpunk
"Snow Crash". Rudy Rucker also
writes SF and went to see Godel
when he was here with Einstein in

As a remote speculation, I'd bet
Wallace never got out of the city.
That's a horribly toxic combo
being smart and totally urban.

The leverage of intellectualization
for that age group is also quite
horrific to me. Back in the day
we could balance between Mach
and Sartre. Post moderns seem to
be missing a balancing viewpoint.

I followed one of your links off
to Martin Higgins podcast the
Eternities, the audio is spotty,
the cast is a bit strange, but
the ideas are worth a listen.

I see you're in the three letter
agency scope now because of the
company you keep. I hope the
spook who follows up on it is
amazed by a dose of RAW Eris.

Todays classic is the Feminist
attack on 4Chan, with the counter
involving Tumblr. The Goddess
goading both sides into a frenzy.

I've been reading about the
medieval Inquisition, has a
fairly good coverage of the subject
without too many gory details.
Shea (RAWs co-author)did a fiction
about the troubadours of Lanquedoc
which gives a pretty good look
at the Cathari.

I always learn something interesting here. Never can tell
what might be of great signifigance

Eric Wagner said...

Terrific, thought provoking piece. I haven't read Wallace. I used to love Tom Robbins. I read his first four novels over and over again in the 80's. I read his fifth novel once, and I haven't read one of his books for 24 years. They just stopped working for me. I picked up one of his collections of essays at the library but just couldn't get into it.

I never heard either of them mentioned in academia. I still associate the number 20 with Robbins because of Still Life with Woodpecker, and I think of him if I see the word CHOICE or a pack of Camels. Or when I think of Maui. Or hitchhiking. Or Jesus. I guess he really marked me.

These days I read bits of David Thomson contemplate the year 1947, the first year of widespread UFO reports. I saw a license plate that read UFOLOGY today.

I suspect Tom Robbins would dig Mr. Wallace. Tom seems like a cool guy. I enjoyed the interview with him on the Maybe Logic DVD.

Bobby Campbell said...

Nice one! I love Tom Robbins. I guess it's not necessarily a coincidence that he has fallen off the cultural radar a bit in the age of toxic irony. Many readers must wonder what the hell he is so goddamn joyful about!

I'm listening to the audio book of Tibetan Peach Pie currently, delighting in its cumbersome vocabulary, and neurosomatic largesse.

I also absolutely respect DFW's intellect and craftsmanship, but must admit I bailed on Infinite Jest, because it seemed like it had started to nurture an excessively anxious aspect of my imagination. Mirror neurons before an abyss. Shit man, I have my own dukkha, I don't need his!

I think a well made "Skinny Legs And All" movie would be one of the best things that could happen to this planet, in its current state of tension.

michael said...


My impression after reading almost all of DFW's books (committed suicide at 46, born 1962) was that his intellectual base was incredibly broad. DFW's problems seem more like he was dealt a bad hand, neurologically. OR: he should've taken "Eastern" ideas about the toxic "self" (Ego), and developed a practice of some sort. But my intuition thinks the former more true than the latter.

Both of DFW's parents were professors. He got away from the mainland Unistat, as evidence by possibly his most famous essay, "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again," about his experience taking a luxury cruise ship trip.

There's not a lot of evidence he did the psychedelic thing of going to to country where English in not the main language. Somehow I still think he was destined for debilitating depression anyway, based on the facts of the case.

His writing seems totally marvelous to me. His novel of 1996, _Infinite Jest_, is 1096 pages (or so), with 500 or so having been cut. (Where have we heard this 500 pages cut thing before?) Infinite Jest - a novel - also has about 320 footnotes; DFW is one of the all-time greats at writing enthralling footnotes.

What is the book you've been reading that's about the Inquisition?

michael said...

@ Prof Wagner-

I would be interested en extremis in reading about why you think TR "stopped working for (you)."

DFW was at Ariz. State for awhile, and loved the place. He'd just published his first novel, and the older professors accepted him, but warned him to not keep writing in his postmodern style, because they were all "realists." DFW says, for his generation, abundant references to pop kulch - esp TV were like freeways and cars and suburban living to their generation, and like lakes and meadows and cliffs were to the Romantics. By referring to the pop media mindscape, he was a "realist" of a younger gen. (And he loved Pynchon, btw.)

A cult of scholarship is already building up over DFW's works.

I recently re-read Another Roadside Attraction by Tom Robbins. 1971. I found the thing far more theological than I'd remembered, and the nature of Jesus's body - what if the Vatican had it, embalmed, and someone exposed it to the world: what would be the effects? - I loved re-reading this book. I read TR for the sentences.

TR cites Mark Twain in a few interviews I've seen, but he seems to have taken a heavy imprint from Twain: the tone, the folksy joking, certain rhythms.
re: hitchhiking: Sissy Mae and coming from South Richmond, VA? There's a bit early on in ECGTB about South Richmond that seems the spittin' image of Twain, writing about the ant.

michael said...

@ Mr. Campbell-

Yea: I don't get the feeling TR is faking it. As soon as I heard Tibetan Peach Pie was coming out, I got in the library holds list. Soon. Soon.

Your "mirror neurons before an abyss" is the most eloquent line I've seen among the majority of bailers-out of Infinite Jest. He said he wanted to write a "sad book," and now all sorts of data has come out about DFW's prior suicide attempts, his extensive experience in AA and halfway houses, etc. (Infinite Jest features a rehab clinic as a main focal point, and our addictions to everything as a main theme): it's difficult for me to not see both that 1.) DFW was saying something real about why Unistat is a rich country filled with a mass of unhappy people, and 2.) DFW may be exteriorizing his own existential/neurobiologically-based angst.

For clearly: there are those among us, like you: you harmonize with Tom Robbins. That just seems so healthy to me.

I was surprised Gus Van Sant decided to make ECGTB. I think Skinny Legs and All would make a better film...depending on exigencies, who makes it, etc. I think Joseph Strick did a damned good job with Ulysses, considering the medium and what it can't do that the Novel does do. What say you?

michael said...

I forgot to mention: David Foster Wallace and the TV show "Jeopardy!" - of which Prof Wagner has carnal knowledge of--

On this Mon, the categories came up and I saw one was about "Wallace," I turned to my wife and said, "They have to include David Foster Wallace here."

And they did. Get a gander at the $800 here, under "Whatchu Talkin' 'Bout Wallace":

A "triple stumper": all 3 contestants got it wrong.:Her's what's funny about this: If you read _Girl With Curious Hair_, the first story is titled "Little Expressionless Animals" and it's heavily Jeopardy!- based.

The idea that the writers of Jeopardy! would use Girl With Curious Hair as the title that referred to DFW seems like their own little joke: Infinite Jest is THE great work associated with DFW. And in that story, Trebek is imagined as a comic figure. Did Trebek know about this when he read the clue on TV?

";My favorite word,' says Alex Trebek, 'is _moist_. It is my favorite word, especially when used in combination with me second-favorite word, which is _induce_.' He looks at the doctor. 'I'm not associating. Is it okay if I just associate?'

"Alex Trebek's psychiatrist says nothing."

"' A dream,' says Trebek. 'I have this recurring dream where I'm standing outside the window of a restaurant, watching the chef flip pancakes. Except it turns out they're not pancakes -- they're faces. I'm watching a guy in a chef's hat flip faces with a spatula.'"

Trebek and Sajak interact and it's just insane. In a good way.


Bobby Campbell said...

I’d like to officially start the rumor that Wes Anderson is set to write and direct the major motion picture adaptation of Tom Robbins’ Skinny Legs and All. Using stop motion animation for the cast of objects, and starring Bill Murray as Turn Around Norman!

I did indeed enjoy Joseph Strick’s Ulysses, but actually prefer the 2003 Ulysses adaptation “Bloom.” I just now saw that the fella that played Stephen in that is playing Joyce himself in a movie, coming out this year, called “Shem The Penman Sings Again.” Neat!

I figure I'll give DFW and Infinite Jest another try sometime, anything that can spook me that good must be worth tangling with.

Eric Wagner said...

I considered Still Life with Woodpecker my favorite Tom Robbins book. That book deals with the theme "How to make love stay." Reading the book the first few times, I thought Tom had the answer. I felt disillusioned when I read in an interview that he wrote that book after a break-up. I don't know if that caused his work to stop working for me, but in my twenties I wanted writers to "give me the answer."

In the early nineties I read a lot about dance, a lot of musicology, a lot of Wodehouse, a lot of Pynchon, etc. Now, the Pynch did write a blurb for Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, and I think that led me to reread the book or at least start to. A friend had given me that book in 1980. I dutifully read it, but it didn't do much for me the first time I read it. Then in 1984 another friend recommended Another Roadside Attraction. I loved that, and then Still Life blew me away. I also loved Jitterbug Perfume. I read his next book once, and it didn't do much for me. Why does love fade? I don't know, but sometimes it does. (Feeling Catullish.)

Eric Wagner said...

Yeah, I just got another email from the Miskatonic University Alumni Association asking for contributions, and it mentioned the Wes Anderson Tom Robbins film.

Cleveland Okie (Tom Jackson) said...


I read 1-2 Tom Robbins books more than 20 years ago, and never got back to him. That happens sometimes, but your piece convinces me I should read more.

Wasn't Tom Robbins the one who wrote, "It's never too late to have a happy childhood?" If he figured out how to get joy from life, he was on to something important.

chas said...

Fungi for the straight guy. Genius. The whole Tom Robbins saga just goes to show you, academics in general just don't dig optimism. Makes sense to me. That just ain't the academic vibe. I remember something at the end of Flashbacks where Tim Leary expressed a sort of pride/happiness/glee that most of the folks associated with the Harvard Psychedelic Project ended up out of the academic rut, free agents of some sort or other.

chas said...

P.S. Michael--You do know that TR writes sentence by sentence, yes?

michael said...

@Bobby Campbell-

Tom Robbins seems to be "in" with Alan Rudolph, Gus Van Sant, and the late great Rbt. Altman, and Wes Anderson's quirks and psychedelic tones seem ripe for a TR adaptation. Good call!

Re: Infinite Jest: a public mathematician named Jordan Ellenberg recently analyzed e-book readers for their marginalia to try to discern a "Hawking Index" which gives a number to best-sellers and which ones are actually read. Piketty's book had the highest number of un-read-edness. Apparently he named it after "Hawking" because of the much-discussed idea that _A Brief History of Time_ was a runaway best-seller but seems hardly read; educated liberals who are non-theists seem to see the book as a necessary piece of furniture in their house. (After the Rushdie fatwa, something similar happened with Satanic Verses.)

Kahneman's _Thinking Fast and Slow_ - a psychedelic non-fic book for me that I read in constantly - also was highly unread. I think _Godel, Escher, Bach_ fits in here...

I think, for fiction, Infinite Jest is like that. RAW said he kept running into people who confessed they quit on Illuminatus! at 50 pages. I suspect Gravity's Rainbow, Ulysses, FW, and Moby Dick are smiliar. One must make a strong personal commitment to these books (okay, the FW thing may be only for a certain genetic caste?).

Maybe give Jest another stab and if it doesn't work out: NO HARM DONE. Move on to what delights you!

michael said...

@ Eric-

There's an interview in Conversations With Tom Robbins where he just gushes over Pynchon's prose style.

re: getting answers from our writers. There's a passage in _Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_, where The Chink explains why he refuses to be a guru, and even refuses to tell the ones who want "wisdom" from him why he won't give them any. See chapter 71, pp.221-227: it harmonizes really well with RAW's disdain for gurus and disciples.

There's the thing Beckett said about FW: it's not about what seems to be the subject of the book; it's the thing itself. (paraphrased from memory). I see a lot of my favorite "postmodern" works as being like this, and very much so for Robbins's books: there's a plot, there's a story, there are actions and motivations...but it's really mostly about the writing. I've been re-watching Lynch's Twin Peaks and now it seems so roaringly obvious to me that "Who Killed Laura Palmer?" is a MacGuffin. It's the style and weirdness, the projecting of that world that the Thing is about.

Or: it seems that way to me.

I do think TR has some profound things to say, but you pretty much get them in the first 3 books. I currently see his overarching ideas as very close to Pynchon's, which seems odd to me since their intellects and troves of knowledges they draw from seem quit different. I do think "style" matters more to TR than Pynch, but I don't have a very cogent argument yet as to why I think-feel this.

michael said...


Yep: Robbins did write that line about childhood. It seems to have been his most famous line so far.

TR has a lot to say about "growing up" compulsory miseducation, and he hits on gnostic ideas about the repressiveness of Industrial era clocks and Time; RAW hits on these themes too, but coming from a slightly different direction.

In one book one of the characters who's very TR-ish says that when he was a child he was someone's imaginary playmate.

michael said...

@ Chas-

Yea, TR is famous for taking three years to get his next novel out because he goes over one sentence all day long, tweaking and altering and tuning every thing just right.

That's a fascinating topic: academics who drop out of the Academy because they're too round and can't fit in a square hole. RAW said optimism was taboo for most professional academics. Now that College seems irreparably broken I wonder if any of those who are dropping out are going to be any good at using their talents to help move the situation toward something less hopeless for...the 47%?

Thanks for chiming in.

chas said...

humor is an inseparable, integral part of my philosophical worldview. The comic sensibility is vastly, almost tragically, underrated by Western intellectuals. Humor can be a doorway into the deepest reality, and wit and playfulness are a desperately serious transcendence of evil. My comic sense, although deliberately Americanized, is, in its intent, much closer related to the crazy wisdom of Zen monks and the goofy genius of Taoist masters than it is to, say, the satirical gibes on Saturday Night Live. It has both a literary and a metaphysical function.--TR


Wonderful read.

Thanks for getting me on a TR hunt.

PQ said...

Just want to say I'm really enjoying the discussion here, dug the post too. I love when the OG gets into this kinda stuff. (Possible idea for a future piece: something on Borges and Italo Calvino?)

Been meaning to read TR for a while now, recently began with the collection of short writings "Wild Ducks Flying Backward". He's got short pieces on Joseph Campbell, Terence McKenna, and Thomas Pynchon in there.

Anonymous said...

That may explain a lot about the
level of superficiality in current
culture. There seems to be a vortex
of avoidance when it comes to ideas.

Apparently rehashing the same old
crap endlessly works so well any
change must be avoided at all costs.

I find the idea that the hip buy
the latest middleweight tome as a
shelf decoration hilarious for some
reason. Like the critic in Illuminatus
who gave it a damn good skimming.

That probably accounts for McKenna
saying he was able to peddle the
results of a reasonable liberal
education as the cutting edge of
new age fringey ideation.

I'm not casting aspersions on
the intelligence of others, just
remarking on the usage they make
of it. It seems it would be a
better usage of resources to buy
books you will read all the way
through, even if it takes awhile
to do it. If you need decorations
the garrets and gutters are full
of starving artists who might
appreciate a crust from your

If you want a test of your reading
endurance the three volume set of
"Dialectical Materialism" is capable of boring the most ardent
into immobility. As for the
Hawking, Newtons Principia was a
great hit with folk who bought it
to display, it had a lot more
meat since the Hawking is an intro
rather than an in depth coverage
of the field.

I'm still working on a re-read
of Pareto (4 vols), then I'll
dig up a copy of Piketty.

If it's not humourous you're not
seeing it right.

BrentQ said...

I really enjoyed this post Michael.

In the past year I've read Jitterbug Perfume by TR and Brief Interviews with Hideous Men by DFW. I have to say you have a great way of articulating many of thoughts that I had while reading DFW.

I often found wallaces writing style to be almost painfully intimate and echoing the way my interior monologue often over-analyses and ruminates on things.

But when I think about DFW the man and not the author I always get this urge that I want to grab him by the shoulders, shake him and say: "Take a McKenna style heroic dose of mushrooms or ayahuasca! Do a 10-day Vipassna retreat! Read some Robert Anton Wilson...You are not your thoughts, The map is not the territory!"

michael said...


You and I, sir, inhabit the same wavelengths. Certain prior writings by others about Calvino and Borges frankly cow me as of this date.

What I do: i just keep re-re-re-reading them, and one day maybe some novel approach occurs to me. Who knows when, and then still maybe not at all...

The commenters at the OG, when summed-over, seem far more interesting than the OG himself. But that's just my opinion, of course.

Imagine writing a book on some aspect of Joyce and trying to sell it these days. (Not just "get into print at a loss.") That's part of what makes something like Birmingham's recent book so cool: there seem to be plenty of brilliant minds who are still mining the Joycewelt, and well, and non-boring up the ying-yang.

Anonymous said...

Good read, reading Infinite Jest at the moment and hadn't considered to compare DFW with TR! I can see some parallels now.

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peter bello said...

ATTENTION YOU ALL: I am agent john collins the Illuminati official agent,i am from united kingdom and I join Illuminati in US,i have been given the alternative to expose Illuminati to the universe that Illuminati is real when you met the rightful agent like me john collins ,i have been an agent to this brotherhood more than eight year now and I am still a member and agent,don't be afraid to contact us if you are willing to join this fraternity, this fraternity welcome anybody in this wide world,this comment is been post by head office,the last comment that was post by the head office in UK was been using by fraudsters and the comment has been stopped by the Lordsupreme and from now upward (4 August 2016) we the Illuminati have stop using it because a lot of scammed are now creating a fake UK number,that is why will have come with new identity number to locate the rightful agent by calling the head office in USA not in UK anymore,ignore +44 has head office from today 4 August 2016 and start calling +1 has head office number for conform,be ware that no need for calling UK number has Illuminati head office,is now located in US,for confirmation call +1(862)260-4433 To join call john collins at whatsapp +(234)8074100134 or In-box us on E-mail: Illuminatimoney66@gmail.com or visit us on website at Www.illuminatimoney66.........com Beware that will the Illuminati is now working on a new program to limited fraudsters and scammer that always use our comment to aim and achieve,please don't call UK number has head office has confirmation,it has be bandy by us the Illuminati now at 4 august 2016 call +1(862)260-4433 as confirmation number,no need of contacting us mobile chat as face-book,imo,Eskimi,you are ask to whatsapp and E-mail us,for joining,don't face-book any agent,it is not our access to join on face-book chat,the only alternative to join is to E-mail/whatsapp john collins at +2348074100134 The rightful identity of us the Illuminati: HEAD OFFICE: +1(862)260-4433 WHATSAPP: +2348074100134 CALL: +2348074100134 E-MAIL:Illuminatimoney66@gmail.com Be aware of scammer and contact us the real Illuminati,reach us through john collins from now, real identity of us Illuminati is listed below: Head office is not located in UK anymore, don't add anybody with UK number and E-mail any email that is Illuminatimoney66@gmail.com Please don't lead yourself to fraudsters all the name of Illuminati,the complain of I have been scam is more than what will can complicated with!save your self by contacting us through this comment of us the Illuminati brotherhood