tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post4712424912656090737..comments2024-02-12T23:25:09.583-08:00Comments on Overweening Generalist: Assault on Poverty: Universal Basic Incomemichaelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-51462215227909243962013-11-20T21:57:37.382-08:002013-11-20T21:57:37.382-08:00Sue Howard-
You're golden once again.
The m...Sue Howard- <br /><br />You're golden once again.<br /><br />The most interesting bit, for me, was Prof Scanlon's paraphrasing of Adam Smith. <br /><br />I think Adam Smith and Scanlon have a lot to add to the discussion, but it seems to me to be a "let's worry about that when we get to it" sorta deal.michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-39448078592080595132013-11-20T21:20:36.773-08:002013-11-20T21:20:36.773-08:00Anon-
Yep: banausic. You're so right about th...Anon-<br /><br />Yep: banausic. You're so right about the Greeks up to now. John Dewey had a long passage in his 1920 book Reconstruction In Philosophy in which he traced back to the Greeks this idea that the only people who know anything worthwhile were the ones who didn't do any manual labor at all; they talked about the Finer Things and the plumber or the guy who grew food or assembled machines and fixed gadgets? They didn't know anything. That's not knowledge! Dewey said: BULLSHIT: knowing how to do things technically, getting your hands dirty, tweaking and fixing things so the roads are work: that's valuable. That's creating wealth. These people are in the world, confronting problems, and solving them. We should honor their knowledge. This banausic idea goes on today, and I saw it in spades in the main mover behind the Great Books program, Mortimer Adler, when I read his autobiography. <br /><br />To inherit wealth and then sit around and talk and write about the Eternal Verities = true knowledge; to actually get your hands dirty? = debased, has nothing to do with the True World of Forms.<br /><br />Pretentions assholery!<br /><br />I can never add to all your points because they're always good and copious and concise, and I'm prolix as all hell, evidence here.<br /><br />But aye: the criminally usurious Pay Day Loan places would probably go out of biz with the UBI, eh? One of many examples any one of us could drum up with 10 sec's thought, and so expect these vultures to spend on rhetoric to tell us all why the UBI is communism, and exactly what Hitler would do, and can't you just see Benjamin Franklin crying in heaven?<br /><br />I like how you touch on what I consider Philosophical Anthropology. And I agree: very few of us would sit around without one idea or some urge to get out and DO something interesting. TV and video games; pot and alcohol are fine for Monday and Tuesday, but for the rest of the week? Get the fuck out of the house and meet with people, talk, and get some sorta project going that will be creative, fun, and will help others. I think THAT's a lot closer to human being than the caricature repeated ad nauseum about needing biosurvival threats in order to get out and make a profit for some Koch-sucker.michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-40985995530519617012013-11-20T21:00:01.819-08:002013-11-20T21:00:01.819-08:00@Some Guy-
Good points. I remember a conversation...@Some Guy-<br /><br />Good points. I remember a conversation I had with a friend about perceptions of time, money and sex: it seems whatever your "ordinary" standard/amount you're used to, you rise to that and always want just a bit more, because THEN you'll be truly happy. The key seems to be in not comparing yourself to your peers, but thinking about what YOU really want in life. Of all the luxurious items (cars/bling/clothes/houses, etc) that we're all *supposed* to want, I don't really care about any of that stuff. My money would go into *experience*...a main riff from almost all of the non-right-wing proponents of UBI emphasize that - if it was enough- you could afford to not work at McDonald's or Wal-Mart or some stultifying, soul-sucking job...unless you wanted to. And then they might offer better wages so they could attract workers back...<br /><br />But really: you address my main fear about the possible implementation of the UBI anywhere: if the Governing/Business/Ruling Class do away with the entire social safety net (negligible in Unistat already!), they'll then do what they always wanted to do: privatize EVERYTHING. And then the UBI would still have people living under freeway overpasses and in parks, panhandling, etc. <br /><br />I do think most people would do "jobs" under the UBI, only some wouldn't be paid all that well, or paid at all. They'd be doing work because they WANTED to do it. <br /><br />I'm not sure about inflation either: one of the main reason even the Wall St Journal, The Economist, and a few "financial advisor" gurus say it's an idea that needs to be looked at is because the 1% have 60% of the wealth, and no one else has money to BUY stuff to keep the economy healthy. People would start buying, vendors would compete for this new market by lowering prices (maybe?), and it might be the opposite of what you're predicting. <br /><br />I agree with you completely: if all we get out of it is wage slavery PLUS state dependence, this is to be avoided at all "costs." The "conservatives" who want the UBI seem to have "dependence on the state" as the main illness that the UBI would cure, so they seem to allies here, although the hardcore Privateers are to be resisted, as I see this, as of this date.<br /><br />And of course you're right about the entire system being obsolete. And thanks for adding to the value of the OG by chiming in from Portugal!michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-15643331170818810602013-11-20T20:41:32.130-08:002013-11-20T20:41:32.130-08:00Psuke-
Hundreds of articles have appeared in the ...Psuke-<br /><br />Hundreds of articles have appeared in the past 10 months about the unaffordability of San Francisco after this 2nd Tech Boom. Also: Manhattan is only for "winners." There seem to be more people writing about Manhattan's expensiveness as a "problem" for the culture of NY than people writing about SF in that way. The nerds/geeks making all that money at FB, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc, make up only 8% of all the jobs in SF, but they want to live there, because there's cool stuff going on. They want culture. The problem is that, just like the first dot.com boom, they drove up the rents, neighborhoods became more gentrified, and it drove out the bohos, weirdos, artists...but the nerds making $200k/yr at FB want to be "entertained" by...us? What to do? <br /><br />One of the most annoying things about not making any money: I can't give any away to people who really need it...like people in the Philippines, or someone hungry here because the Republicans cut FOOD STAMPS back to $4/day.michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-14512069218771698522013-11-20T03:34:18.738-08:002013-11-20T03:34:18.738-08:00Stop press: Economist article on Basic Income - ht...Stop press: Economist article on Basic Income - http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/11/government-guaranteed-basic-incomeSue Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042694919673009972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-40769840760235915902013-11-19T13:17:16.403-08:002013-11-19T13:17:16.403-08:00I love the rhetoric around "work
ethic",...I love the rhetoric around "work<br />ethic", most of the objectors have<br />never dirtied their hands with<br />any actvity more strenuous than a<br />coupon clip.<br />You can trace this crap all the way<br />back to the Greeks who considered<br />people who actually do real work<br />as akin to subhumans (banausic ?).<br /><br />I think you've got the framing right<br />when you say get them to talk about<br />what they would do.<br />Trying to decide what others would<br />do is just fantasy mongering. It<br />only produces bullshit stories<br />a problem that occurs far too<br />often with humans. The Occupy<br />movement has the right idea here,<br />pay off peoples mortgages. What<br />they don't do is document what that<br />person did afterwards. The one<br />thing no one has mentioned is who<br />would really be screwed out of an<br />existence by UBI, no one would <br />dare ask for spare change or lay<br />around on the sidewalk or hang<br />on to a charity that preys on<br />the less fortunate to get their<br />own uplifting status. I read that<br />one of the benefits of Christian<br />Heaven was to be able to watch the<br />tormented in Hell undergoing an<br />eternal torture.<br /><br />Once UBI kicked in there are no <br />more excuses, if you blew it on<br />drugs, booze, gambling it isn't<br />societies problem, it's your<br />problem and next time you'll have<br />to think about it because you<br />have no excuses left that anyone<br />will accept.<br /><br />I'm sure the swindlers and con<br />artists from top to bottom of<br />human civilization would scheme to<br />pry as much of the UBI as they <br />could from the recipients, it's<br />how it works now, so no surprise<br />when there's no change in that<br />behavior.<br /><br />This isn't a utopia any more than<br />getting sick people off the street<br />by curing them creates a utopia.<br />Look what happened when the mad<br />utopian scheme to educate everyone<br />was tried, the cries that it was<br />a waste of time and money have<br />died down now but the unintended<br />benefits are all around us. If <br />you think the uneducated would<br />have struck down Jim Crow laws and<br />curbed the worst excesses of racism<br />I'll sell you a lease option on<br />a Hudson River Bridge cheap.<br /><br />Read Proudhon, almost every one<br />of his mad anarchist schemes is<br />now practiced in some form or<br />another in society. Did humans<br />suddenly embrace it and start<br />calling themselves anarchists.<br /><br />I think that the real problem is<br />that there has been far too little<br />work done in science on what human<br />behavior, nature, motivation <br />consists of, there are a lot of<br />outmoded and archaic answers that<br />fail when tested. Put yourself to<br />the test, what would you do if<br />UBI kicked in. Become a panhandler,<br />start a church, lay on the couch<br />all day, implement some idea you<br />haven't been able to afford, buy<br />the tools to make something new ?<br /><br />I guarantee your answer won't be<br />to accept some bullshit stereotype<br />of the lazy, worthless human being<br />who isn't worth anything unless<br />beaten into action by circumstance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-18275009081319885262013-11-19T11:37:00.309-08:002013-11-19T11:37:00.309-08:00The proponents of UBI have the right idea, but the...The proponents of UBI have the right idea, but they seem to me a tad short sighted. The economy has ways of adjusting around the UBI and nullifying it. In my country (Portugal), the state has leaned socialist for a long time: if you can name your circumstances, there's a subsidy for it (or used to, before austerity turned fashionable). The result, for lower middle to working class: jobs pay below the poverty line and you're expected to have a job AND collect subsidies; foregoing either isn't a choice. The UBI would do away with all the bureaucratic acrobatics our subsidies require of their beneficiaries, but I don't see how things would change beyond that. Prices would keep rising, and wages wouldn't have to go up accordingly because the UBI would be there to fill the gap -- which would also force everyone to get jobs. You would, in effect, be replacing wage slavery with wage slavery AND dependence on the state; meaning that if the state decided to change its policies all of a sudden, you'd be starving and homeless, regardless of your job situation -- which is what's happening in the austere version of Portugal as we speak, incidentally.<br /><br />The current system isn't just broken; it's obsolete: what it offers in theory has nothing to do with our practical demands unless you buy into an intricate process of rationalization -- hence, for starters, the whole financial sector. If we are to solve the current problems, it would be simpler and, in the long run, more effective, to just restructure it entirely. (I actually believe restructuring it entirely is the ONLY solution but then we'd be entering a whole other discussion.)Some guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-40029697896532414842013-11-19T10:43:13.580-08:002013-11-19T10:43:13.580-08:00A fabulous post!
I have been thinking about what ...A fabulous post!<br /><br />I have been thinking about what a UBI might look like here, and some of the hurdles towards implementing it.<br /><br />One of the majors ones might be the insanely divergent cost of living areas...by which horrible phrasing I mean, say, the cost of living in Boston, or San Francisco (or practically anywhere in the Bay Area), as compared to Lansing. Or Las Vegas, NM (no, the *other* Las Vegas...not Bugsy's). $2800 would barely give you money to sneeze in the former, but might be able to let one live like a king in the latter.<br /><br />And, of course, there still is (as you say) the (idiot) argument that some people may sit around and do nothing! Horrors! As though such people could be any more parasitic than anyone in the current financial sector. Or the Tea Party backers.Psukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01116423188181098527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-71114160936149570062013-11-18T15:36:30.340-08:002013-11-18T15:36:30.340-08:00When did Zukofsky implement "A"? - Oops,...When did Zukofsky implement "A"? - Oops, I misunderstood. I hope Santa brings you "A" & I hope you enjoy it. I suspect you will. I saw my sole Peter Dale Scott book sitting on the bottom shelf of the Empress (my poetry bookshelf) this morning. If UBI happened...hm. I'd pay off a lot of bills and put some money in the bank. (I hear someone telling Stephen Dedalus, "Put thy money in thy purse.") I might quit one of my jobs...eventually.<br /><br />On similar lines, I keep modifying my bucket list. (Man, I narcissistically avoid your blog topic and talk about myself.) For years it had one item: travel the Piero della Francesca Trail, visiting Rimini and Arezzo, and perhaps Sansepolcro and/or Urbino. Then I added visiting Paris again and reading Proust in French. Now I have an itch to see "Celine and Julie Go Boating." Now that last one I could do easily - buy a VHS tape of the film (which I might do if UBI happened). I keep waiting for Criterion to finally put out some Rivette on DVD. (And I hate studying grammar - I fear my laziness may prevent my ever really learning another language well enough to read a complicated novel in it.) Eric Wagnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312033917401203598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-71905550883274792192013-11-18T15:29:39.658-08:002013-11-18T15:29:39.658-08:00Sue Howard-
I'm right there with you. When I ...Sue Howard-<br /><br />I'm right there with you. When I started looking outside the Unistat bubble, I saw how this idea had picked up enormous steam, esp in Europe, with the goddamned austerity the plutocrats forced on the actual workers.<br /><br />As I read guys like Standing, apparently the UBI is wildly popular in parts of Latin America, Africa, India, and Cyprus is taking it seriously too.<br /><br />The Ruling/Governing Class has to ask themselves: how much misery and poverty are they willing to put with in the face of...well, today the Unistat stock market broke a record: it went over 16,000 for the first time in history. Hooorayyyy for those who already have more than they can possibly spend! If they're worth anything close to their Advanced Educations they'll see the current situation is an absolute dead end...unless they have become so insular that The Poor/Those People are now the enemy and must be done away with ASAP in order for them to...who know what those assholes think. But we can get glimpses of it: Dick Cheney is still allowed on TV to tell us what a liar and failure Obama is; the heirs to the Wal-Mart fortune...don't make anything, but the TAKE in as much as the bottom 40% of the country. Is this not obscene? If not, what IS obscene?<br /><br />http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/sam-waltons-fortune-walmart-employees-7-million-yearsmichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-44005837177536008532013-11-18T15:12:28.590-08:002013-11-18T15:12:28.590-08:00Prof. Wagner-
I don't see it happening soon, ...Prof. Wagner-<br /><br />I don't see it happening soon, either. I think we might have to amend the Constitution to get rid of Citizen's United and stop the fascist Business Criminal class from buying Congress. All elections should be publicly financed; this has seemed like a no-brainer to me for 20 yrs.<br /><br />I don't think anything HUMAN will get done with the way it is now.<br /><br />re: Zukofsky: I can't weigh in; I don't have those books, but I hope to acquire "A" for xmas, if I'm lucky. (With a UBI I'd have "A" the day it was implemented!)michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-90817169322211172502013-11-18T15:07:47.315-08:002013-11-18T15:07:47.315-08:00@ BIG11375: the land value tax is one I see over a...@ BIG11375: the land value tax is one I see over and over as a way to partially fund UBI. This idea goes back to Henry George, although it can be tweaked.<br /><br />Van Parijs likes a small tax on every electronic transaction. What do you think of this idea?michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-68807759703018198472013-11-18T15:05:04.566-08:002013-11-18T15:05:04.566-08:00@Livable4All-
Thanks for pointing out the not-tal...@Livable4All-<br /><br />Thanks for pointing out the not-talked-about by corporate media/hidden aspects of "expense." This is part of what I meant about "systems thinking" in my response to Tom Jackson.<br /><br />For a long time, one of the most wince-inducing phrases for me has been the economist's term "externalities." It's cold, bloodless semantic BS: it means pollution, poverty, cancers...we must think in terms of SYSTEMS. And the "environment" can be defined as ANYTHING or anywhere outside the boundaries of your own skin. <br /><br />We can think of an internal environment also, and wouldn't a UBI go a long way to make your internal environment less charged with...stress hormones and adrenaline?michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-63399045783179101952013-11-18T14:57:44.967-08:002013-11-18T14:57:44.967-08:00@ Tom Jackson-
Some wonky types think the Swiss p...@ Tom Jackson-<br /><br />Some wonky types think the Swiss proposal will fail because it's too much also, but I've seen others who've explained how it could work. They're a fairly rich country. <br /><br />Almost every person or group who favors the UBI emphasizes that each country has a unique situation already in place, which means the solution toward the UBI would be slightly different everywhere. This makes sense to me. Van Parijs says there will be no "big bang" implementation of UBI. <br /><br />The challenge to us pro-UBI people is how to answer the "something for nothing"/"free rider"/"tragedy of the commons" moral objections...Van Parijs (or was it Standing?) tells people to experiment with first thinking about what they themselves would do with a guaranteed foundational income and bracket the Qs about "other people." <br /><br />The other major challenge is to explain ways to fund it. (If you do the reading, there is no end to ideas put forth about this.)<br /><br />One of the guesses put forth by a few about the prospects for Unistat: get a backdoor NIT going first, and ease into it. That makes sense to me, even though the NIT is all about conditionals.<br /><br />One thing I love about this proposal is that it makes us think in terms of SYSTEMS. I've talked to people who've never heard of it but when I give a basic definition of what it is, they reject it as science fiction/utopian BS. I say to them: okay, but what would YOU do if you received $25K a year w/no conditions? They brighten up. Then - because most of my friends are struggling - I say, "wouldn't you spend a lot of it at businesses that are hurting because of the stagnant economy?" Yes: but they'd like to take jobs that they want to do but pay poorly now, realizing that they could then afford to do those jobs. Then I proffer: lots of people would NOT take those jobs because they didn't HAVE to work a crummy job that pays poorly...so wages might go up! Etc. The UBI proposal taxes our abilities to find out about systems and play with how they might interact. <br /><br />Now: here's the main schism for Unistat as things move forward on this: liberals who want it emphasize values, dignity, and freedom...and would like to retain as much of the existing social safety net as possible, pointing out we're the richest country in the world with a GINI that's equal to banana republics. A coalition of Charles Murray-thinkers with the liberals could get it done at some point, but many of us have long ago seen the writing on the wall with the right wing of the Libertarians: they see UBI as a way to eventually privatize EVERYTHING. I see this as potentially worse than the crap sandwiches we have now. You'd end up spending all your UBI on necessities, and forget about 'real freedom." <br /><br />That said, $18K/yr seems reasonable to me, and I will not go into the details of how I arrived at that number, as I've already typed too much.. michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526042582094867513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-22933129021300814462013-11-18T13:35:40.539-08:002013-11-18T13:35:40.539-08:00Excellent post in a fascinating series. I remain v...Excellent post in a fascinating series. I remain very optimistic over UBI - it seems to have picked up a LOT of support in the last few years (some credit probably due to "social" media). And with about 99% of political "debate" now focused on finger-pointing and identifying the bad people/groups, I will take any sensible positive idea that I can. (Well, not any - it has to meet my need for indolence and basic comfort).Sue Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042694919673009972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-53861015141870300472013-11-18T11:55:21.892-08:002013-11-18T11:55:21.892-08:00Interesting blog. I thought more about these sort...Interesting blog. I thought more about these sort of ideas back during G W Bush's first term when I read a number of books recommended by Bob Wilson. I've drifted into more "literary" reading over the past decade, and while I applaud the ideas you discuss, I don't see them manifesting in the US any time soon.<br /><br />Speaking of time, in Bottom: On Shakespeare, Zukofksy compares Vico and J S Bach's dates and their overlap: Jun 23, 1668 - Jan 23, 1744, for Vico, and Mar 31, 1685 - Jul 28, 1750, for Bach. I'd never noticed those 23's for Vico before.Eric Wagnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312033917401203598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-43844975864350012962013-11-18T11:41:08.349-08:002013-11-18T11:41:08.349-08:00Giving people enough money to live on obliterates ...Giving people enough money to live on obliterates poverty and frees everyone's entrepreneurial spirit. Easily funded by using current welfare and pension budgets and tax increases, either income based, consumption based it better still land value tax based BIG11375http://thebigpoliticalparty.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-26009708233739092942013-11-18T10:57:10.252-08:002013-11-18T10:57:10.252-08:00No, universal livable income is not absurdly expen...No, universal livable income is not absurdly expensive. What is absurdly expensive is 1) the high costs of poverty on people and environment; and 2) the destructive costs of pursuing jobs and economic growth on the environment, and 3) the costs of stalling any social economic evolution due to 1 and 2. <br />Read more "The High Costs of Leaky Roof Society" http://www.livableincome.org/agliroof.htmLivable4Allhttp://www.livableincome.org/index.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178284085080580526.post-38403212121168813192013-11-18T09:20:54.364-08:002013-11-18T09:20:54.364-08:00I worry that the Swiss proposal will fail because ...I worry that the Swiss proposal will fail because it is absurdly generous. $2,800 a month amounts to $33,600 a year; can the Swiss really afford that? The $10,000 a year Charles Murray proposes sounds like it might be a little low. What do you see as the ideal figure?Cleveland Okie (Tom Jackson)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07810736442596736041noreply@blogger.com